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Ep #121: Lindsey Coaches Chris – I’m a Coach, I Should Know Better

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We’re back again giving you guys another opportunity to experience the power of coaching in real-time. This time around we’re turning the tables and I’m coaching my husband Chris. He’s been incredibly vulnerable in taking part in this conversation, and the value he offers in this session is truly mind-blowing.

Chris is a successful coach, but what I’m coaching him on comes up for coaches of all levels. So, whether you’ve never been a coach, never been coached, or if you’re already an established coach, you’re going to love this conversation about the super-common thought, “I’m a coach, I should know better.”

As coaches, we help our clients through their limiting beliefs, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have them ourselves. So, tune in this week to discover how to see where you’re telling yourself you should or shouldn’t be doing something, and what’s coming up as a result. I’m showing you how you can share the transformation that Chris experiences, so you can go through the same shift yourself and access the growth that’s available on the other side.

Anything but Average is now open for enrollment! This is the program that teaches you how to start your coaching business and sign clients so you can create the life you really want, so click here to join!

The Anything but Average Coach Mastermind is now closed for enrollment. If you want to be in the fall class, make sure to mark your calendars for August 31st.

What You'll Learn on this Episode

  • The shame we experience when we think, “I’m a coach, I should know better.”
  • How the shame we have around shoulds stops us from going deeper and accessing real growth.
  • The real reasons you might not be hitting the goals you want to hit.
  • Why ignoring the shame is never the answer.
  • Chris’s personal emotional experience of having thoughts about how he should know better.
  • Why the fear doesn’t decrease on its own when you’re making more money as a coach.
  • How to think something new and stop thoughts like, “I’m a coach, I should know better,” from limiting you.

Featured on the Show

LISTEN TO THE FULL EPISODE

Click to Read Episode Transcript

Welcome to the Anything But Average podcast where I will teach you how to create a coaching business one step at a time. I’m Lindsey Mango, a life coach passionate about helping you create the life of your wildest dreams by creating a coaching business. Let’s get started.

Hello, and welcome back to another week and another episode of Anything But Average. Guys, we are back again with another episode where you get to hear coaching in real time. But this time it is not me being coached, it is my husband, Chris, being coached, who is also a coach and has a coaching business.

He is highly successful and before I kind of get into explaining what it’s all about, and what to listen for and how to relate to it, I think you’re going to figure that out anyway. But I just want to celebrate him because I know how vulnerable it was to do this. Like there was so much growth in him being willing to be coached and have all of you guys hear it. It required, I think I already said that, but it required a lot of vulnerability on his part.

And it actually applies to what we talk about today, which is shame. And getting out of that shame and really being open to the growth available. So I think it’s just fun to think about just the action of recording this, there was so much growth. And then the coaching and transformation he got on the actual episode was really, really impactful. In fact he said, let me go back really quick.

We coached each other both on a goal we have for July, and we’re coaching on closing the gap on his goal for July. And he made $7,500 In the last day since recording that episode.

The thing I want to make sure that I address before we jump in is while Chris is a little bit further, I would say, than most of you guys listening on this podcast as coaches, the work that we do, the growth that he had, the coaching that he got is something that I see people experience at all levels.

So whether you want to start a coaching business and you haven’t started yet, or you’re just getting started, or you’ve already started and you’re working on your first few clients, or you’re going for your first 10K, or six figures, or multiple six figures, this applies to you. And I hope you heard that on last week’s episode as well, that my brain is the same brain that you guys have. And his brain is the same brain.

And so even though the goal we might be talking about might be a little bit bigger than the goal that you are working towards, the lesson and the growth is still the same. And today’s episode is called I’m a coach, I should know better because how many of you guys have that thought?

Or how many of you think my life isn’t good enough yet? I still have weight to lose, I still don’t have this picture perfect lifestyle and I can’t be a coach yet. Or I’m a coach and I should be mastering these skills and not have these areas of my life that aren’t working yet, or I should not be failing at my goals.

This is a thought process that I see at every level with every coach. And this is what Chris and I coach on on today’s episode because he has a goal and while we originally started out coaching on his thoughts about hitting the goal, what we discovered is we couldn’t even coach on those things because there was so much shame around having those thoughts in the first place.

And I will tell you, if you are thinking things like I should know better, I should do better, I should be past this by now, like anywhere where you’re saying I should or shouldn’t, you’re likely applying some sort of shame. And that shame blocks you from going deeper to actually access the growth that you need to in order to create the result that you want.

So it’s almost I imagine, like the shame and the I should or I shouldn’t is like a little fence. And inside the fence is the growth, like the things you need to look at and work on in order to create what you want, in order for you to hit your goal. But the shame around it blocks you from even being able to access it. And that’s actually what we coach on today.

Again, I didn’t know where this was going to go, we started coaching on the goal but then I picked up on something and we went deep with it. And that was the shame that Chris was experiencing because he was having the thought, I’m a coach. I coach my clients on all these limiting beliefs, I help them through all these things, I shouldn’t be letting this stop me. And that’s the direction we went on.

And so for all of you guys, I want to share this episode because, first, I want you to look at where you’re shaming yourself and where you’re telling yourself I should or I shouldn’t. And address that shame and use the transformation that Chris experiences and use the questions that I ask to experience that same shift so that you can start to let go of that shame so you can actually access the growth that you need to in order to create the result that you want.

In order to start your business, sign clients, sign more clients, hit that lofty goal so you can create the anything but average life you want. So I want you to take this episode and look at where you’re doing this so that you can go deeper. Because the minute that you apply to shame, the minute you tell yourself you should or shouldn’t, you block yourself from the growth and you just kind of stay spinning in the same place over and over and over again.

And without working through that, you can’t even touch the growth that’s possible for you. And this is what I do as a coach in Anything But Average, in my mastermind, is I am trained to be on the outside of your brain to see what’s happening so that we can recognize why you’re not doing the things you need to do, why you’re not hitting the goals you want to be hitting, why you’re not starting or signing clients. Because we’re in our own, I love the saying you can’t see the label if you’re in the jar.

And it doesn’t matter how brilliant as a coach you are, you are in the jar in your own brain. And so this is what coaching looks like. This is what we do inside the program. This is what you learn to do. Yes, while it’s nice to have someone outside of your brain, you can learn how to do this in a really powerful way within yourself too. And this is what you learn through changing your life in the program so that you can then understand how to do this for other people.

So this is kind of just like a culmination of everything that my program is about, that coaching is about. And I’m super excited to share this episode with you guys. Use it in any way that applies. And again, I want to celebrate my husband for being vulnerable and being willing to share this with the world.

And make sure that if you’re not listening, check out his podcast. It’s called Relentless Growth. He’s a brilliant coach, he coaches CEOs and highly successful business owners to create more freedom, fulfillment, and success. And he is amazing at it. I’m sure you heard that on the last episode.

And before we jump in, Anything But Average is now open for enrollment. This is my program that teaches you how to start your coaching business, sign clients, and create the anything but average life you want. We start by focusing on your growth so that you are leading by example and you know exactly how to help your clients by first helping yourself.

And then we jump into how to actually plan out your business basics, your offer, your ideal client, who you’re going to help, what type of coach you are, how to launch your business. And then how to get out there and start signing clients so you can help people and use coaching as the vehicle to fund and create the life that you really want.

Go to lindseymangocoaching.com/anythingbutaverage to enroll. Doors close August 1st. And I haven’t mentioned this, but we are now offering a payment plan. So get in there. I will see you guys on the inside and let’s jump into today’s episode.

Lindsey: Let’s start with what is your goal for July?

Chris: Oh, she just strapped on CEO Lindsey voice and we have 15 minutes to record this episode.

Lindsey: Getting to business.

Chris: Okay, go ahead.

Lindsey: What is your goal for July?

Chris: 50K.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: I am currently 37K off the mark as of recording this.

Lindsey: Okay, and it’s July 11th right now when we’re recording this.

Chris: I am looking to pick something fast and easy to coach on so that we can knock this out.

Lindsey: It doesn’t need to be fast. Okay, so tell me your thoughts about creating the next $37,000 to hit your goal for July.

Actually, let’s start here, where’s your level of belief from 1 to 10, 10 being totally done, 1 being don’t believe it at all. Where are you at in terms of believing that 37 more thousand dollars is done?

Chris: Six.

Lindsey: Okay, why?

Chris: Actually, six when I’m not looking at the calendar, four when I’m looking at the calendar.

Lindsey: Okay, well the calendar is a reality, so let’s use the calendar.

Chris: Four when I’m looking at the calendar because I’m thinking we’re taking a week off to hang out with family, and three days off for my birthday. And I clearly have an association with how much time I can put into this and effort.

Lindsey: Okay, and what that means that your results.

Chris: Yeah.

Lindsey: Okay, what else?

Chris: Normally I would have more business in the pipeline and I think I don’t. I’m saying that because I see it’s a thought, it’s not necessarily a fact. But I would say that that’s one of the thoughts pulling down the six to a four, is I don’t think I have enough cued up qualified leads. How about that?

Lindsey: Okay. What else? Like if you had to come to me and say, “Yeah, I’m going to promise you I’m going to put $37,000 more in our savings account this month,” what keeps you from being able to tell your wife with that level of certainty that it’s done?

Chris: I’m searching for language because it’s like it’s some feeling of I don’t know that I can control that. It’s like I’m working to distill the monkey mind language.

Lindsey: So it’s just I can’t control that. Like I’m not in charge of that.

Chris: Something like that, yeah.

Lindsey: Okay. What else?

Chris: I think that’s it.

Lindsey: Okay. So you said we’re taking a week off, three days off for my birthday, basically that all comes down to the amount of time.

Chris: No, there’s one more.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: I’m embarrassed about those thoughts.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: I’m just kind of witnessing what’s happening in my body and I’m like, oh, I’m recoiling. Like the idea of that hitting one of my clients’ ears makes me shudder.

Lindsey: That’s really good.

Chris: Because I wouldn’t buy that for a second from them. And it makes me feel terrible that I’m buying that from myself, like from my own thoughts.

Lindsey: Okay, let’s talk about the embarrassment then.

Chris: Oh, great. Yeah, let’s go there.

Lindsey: Tell me more about it. Yeah, like why do you feel embarrassed?

Chris: Well, I mean, that’s pretty obvious. I do this for a living and I should be able to see that. If you heard the inflection in that it’s because I teach my clients that should is a glaring neon sign of there’s work to be done there. Because all of your shoulds are some kind of rule that some kind of imposed belief system, structure, boundary that probably is borrowed from bad programming or some sort of disempowering belief structure. So shoulds are really signposts for hey, there’s something underneath this.

Lindsey: So what does it mean that you should be able to see this? Like what does it mean?

Chris: That I’m bad that I didn’t. That I’m wrong for not seeing it. That I’m a shameful, dirty little coach.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: That is somehow, like I’m skipping to what I would draw out of my clients. Like there’s some sort of sense of fraudulence with if I didn’t see this in my own mind, who am I to lead these clients through their own stuff?

Lindsey: So how does this thought process play out like all of the time? Like how does this show up in your results that you’re creating when you’re embarrassed that you have a human brain, like we all do, and that you should be apparently past it because you are a coach?

Chris: It makes me hyper vigilant to catch it and correct it and preemptively, I don’t want say be perfect because I really don’t believe in perfection and want things to be perfect. But there’s definitely a higher threshold for performance and the results for myself than anybody else.

Lindsey: And what happens if you think you should know better? Like I want you to play out that thought. When you think you should know better how do you feel? I’m guessing like shame, just because I know you.

Chris: Yeah, well I was goes on to say, I mean, like all the surface level feelings are rooted in some sort of shame and disempowerment.

Lindsey: Okay. And what do you do when you feel shame? When you think you should know better but apparently you don’t?

Chris: I get reticent, like I pull back. It’s more what I don’t do.

Lindsey: Okay, what don’t you do then?

Chris: Help more people, make more offers, invite people to coaching.

Lindsey: Why? Why is that the action? Play it out a little bit further and deeper. Like when you think you shouldn’t be being this way, I would guess you feel shame. And when you feel shame, you avoid it. You avoid seeing it, you avoid experiencing it, you avoid looking at it.

Chris: Well, whatever form it manifests into, I want to hide it away. So yeah, I don’t bring it out into the light and actually bring it to someplace where I can work through it and deal with it.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: Yeah, I think there’s a sense of avoidance there. I never say like and um as much as when you’re coaching me, by the way. You’ll rarely hear like and um on my podcast.

Lindsey: This is because it’s real, right?

Chris: Yeah, well and I’m also like processing out loud, which is always a little different.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: I think that’s it though. Like it’s an avoidance pattern, see, I’m still doing it.

Lindsey: You’re overthinking that the mic is here.

Chris: No, I wouldn’t want to listen to all those likes. Pavel, scrub out those likes and ums.

Lindsey: No, this is a part of it though. This is the same thing showing up.

Chris: Yeah, probably. You could argue that.

Lindsey: Okay, so when you avoid what, I love that you started this and you’re like, “I’m not a perfectionist,” and then you’re like, “We need to scrub all that out.”

Chris: Let’s weaponize Chris’s coaching against him.

Lindsey: So when you avoid looking at it, what ends up happening? What’s the result you create?

Chris: I don’t deal with it, it shows up in my subconscious and helps me or forces me to make the same decisions over and over. And I don’t outgrow it. And it somehow stays in there causing problems.

Lindsey: Yes. And what result does that create? Look at your like tangible results, what result will it create if you just keep making the same decisions, doing the same thing in relation to your goal?

Chris: I think it just holds me back.

Lindsey: Yeah.

Chris: It drops me into some sort of victimhood and disempowerment that suggests I can’t go for what I want, I can’t do what I want, I can’t have what I want, I can’t help who I want.

Lindsey: Yeah, and a 50K goal would be like a pretty solid month for your business, right? Like one of your higher months?

Chris: Yeah, it’s a higher month for sure. I mean, that’s why that’s the goal for this month, because July is usually a low month. I don’t know if it’s because of summer or what but traditionally it’s a low month in my business. And I want to break that pattern this July.

And also, for context for everybody listening, I usually take high, I don’t know how to say it, like high deposit clients. They pay a lot of money in one sitting and so there’s a normal ebb and flow.

Lindsey: Ebb and flow, up and down of painful and then not maybe.

Chris: Yeah, so it’s not that every single month needs to be a 50 or $75,000 month but I want to break that, I see this limitation and this limiting belief showing up. Like I saw it show up in this June as oh, July is probably going to be a low month because it usually. I’m like that’s horseshit.

Lindsey: Right, so if you think about it, let’s take it back. If 50 is like stretching you, but then you tell yourself you shouldn’t be thinking and feeling all these things. And then that causes you to keep making the same decisions doing the same thing, what result do you end up creating?

Chris: The same one over and over.

Lindsay: So you end up, I think the shame is the bigger problem versus the lack of belief. Because any goal you’re going to be working towards there’s always going to be a lack of belief in creating it. Otherwise, you would already be hitting that goal, right? And so if every time you shame—

Chris: No, I don’t think that’s the case with me because I’ll set a really high goal with something, like taking Friday’s off. And even if I’m not always nailing that, I’m like that’s something that’s achievable even though that’s a pretty— What? Why are stopping?

Lindsay: No, I’m listening.

Chris: Oh okay. I thought you had like a curl in your mouth like you looked like you were going to say something back to that. Well, what’s your broader point? Because I think you’re trying to get somewhere.

Lindsey: My broader point was, yeah, I was saying you feel shame when you have all these limiting beliefs around your goal, right? And the shame keeps you from being able to dig in and really look at them and grow with them.

And so what I’m saying is the lack of belief isn’t the issue. It’s the shame you feel, because when you’re working towards any new goal there’s always going to be doubt, and fear, and discomfort, and lack of belief. That’s really not a problem. That’s just the growth. But you can’t even touch the growth because you always throw shame on top of it.

And then you can’t even get there because you’re like, “I shouldn’t be thinking and feeling these things.” And what I’m saying is welcome to the art of business, you will always be stretching yourself to new limits, there will always be negative beliefs, limiting beliefs. And if you don’t get past the shame piece, then you will never dig deep enough to grow past it to hit the next level, and then the next level, and then the next level.

Chris: Well, that’s a good point because I have no shame in my game when it comes to things beyond money, right? If we set a goal to move to California or…

Lindsey: Well those feel like they’re in your control, I want to offer that. Friday’s off, moving to California, that all feels like it’s in your control. This doesn’t and I think there’s an important piece of that.

Chris: Okay.

Lindsey: But that’s another coaching conversation, I want to just stay with the shame. I’m just showing you how the shame—

Chris: No, I think you’re right and I’m searching for how it plays out because if my ego knows shame works and puts me in inaction I stay safe, I don’t have to work through that. I don’t have to stick my neck out for emotional risk, or financial risk, or embarrassment, or unsafety.

Lindsey: And really what you’re saying here is what happens if your clients know that you have all of these limiting beliefs and thoughts that they have too? What does that mean about you?

Chris: I see it plain as day when you say it like that. But in my head I was making it mean I’m a bad coach because I shouldn’t have thoughts this weak.

Lindsey: And this is so good, I want you guys all hear this because I think so many coaches just starting out experience this. They’re like who am I to coach people? You have years and years of experience and great results and great client results. Some of the people listening don’t even have any of that, but they have their own experience or their own transformation.

And I just think it’s important because when you think you should be perfect, you block yourself from the growth that’s available to you to serve more people and create different outcomes. It’s like this game, you just keep staying stuck in the same spinning cycle.

Chris: Right, the fear does not change, we just add a zero or three and you hit a new level and you master that. And when you reach up for the next level it creates, or you uncover a new level of four out of 10 beliefs that you have to shore up. So I see all of that.

Lindsey: Go ahead, keep going.

Chris: No, you were ready to ask something.

Lindsey: So what do you have to believe in order to stop feeling shame? This is kind of one of your go to things, is shaming yourself that you should know better, you should be better because you’re a coach and all of these things. What’s something that you can lock into that will like let go of that shame? I’m seeing your face, is this going to be good?

Chris: I’m working for I can reframe this very simply, it’s not shameful to have a thought. It’s shameful to allow that thought to rule you, in my mind.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: I do not want that. I think this is why I reject it so strongly, even though it’s subconscious. It feels like weakness when I expose it and I’m like that’s unexcusable. That’s way below my standard, I cannot tolerate that.

Lindsey: I just want to, like before you keep going, like that’s what creates that. So it’s like you feel shame, I should know better, I shouldn’t let this limit me. The result is you don’t look at it. It ends up limiting you and the circle goes on and on and on.

Chris: Yeah, the avoidance creates shame, shame creates avoidance.

Lindsey: Yeah, you’re trying to avoid the result and that’s what our brains do. And you ultimately just keep creating it over and over and over again.

Chris: I just keep picturing that woman in Game of Thrones like, “Shame!”

Lindsey: Yes. Okay, so what is a thought that will help you step out of this? What would help you be totally open, which you are, I think there’s growth in the fact that we’re recording this podcast, but like have no shame and be like, “Yeah, I have all these thoughts and they hold me back like all the time.”

Chris: There’s a couple things, one that made me want to do this because it isn’t comfortable and I don’t enjoy it. You know, like being put on the altar here of hey, do you really practice what you preach about growth? It’s uncomfortable, and the growth on the other side is worth that and I know that.

So if I don’t sign up for looking at these types of thoughts and remedying them, I don’t improve, I don’t grow, and that’s not acceptable. And I can’t be the example for my clients, which feels even worse. So that has to change.

Lindsey: There’s no other option, I would guess. Because what’s the option? If you keep doing what you’re doing and you keep letting shame run the show to avoid looking at these things, what happens?

Chris: I just see it as like a governor on my results, like I could never outpace or outperform that kind of limited mindset.

Lindsey: So what do you have, like what has to change? What are you going to decide right here on this podcast that you’re going to change?

Chris: Well, I’m going to get you a shower because you smell.

Lindsey: I do, I went on a long walk and worked out. That was like the first time ever that you’ve said that.

Chris: You don’t really smell, you just smell sweaty. You’re not bad. You don’t stink, I didn’t say you stink.

Lindsey: That’s fine.

Chris: No, I’m kidding. I don’t know how to say it, I’ll decide to look for these. Now I’m on like a seek and destroy mission of like where are the shameful thoughts and how do I eliminate them quickly?

Lindsey: I don’t think you need to eliminate them. I think it’s about witnessing the shame and deciding anyway.

Chris: Well, I mean, the truth is that the thought is neutral, right? Just because I have the thought, I’m a bad coach because I have doubts about hitting my target. That’s just a neutral thought. It’s if I prescribe all this meaning to it like, well, that means you’re a bad coach or that means you’re a bad guy, like not even about the behavior, but about who I am.

Lindsey: So what new meaning do you want to assign to it? Like something that you can actually feel in your body that feels true.

Chris: I think compassion for the brain that said, hey, look, we’re trying to keep you safe, this seems scary.

Lindsey: We’re going to tell you you’re a bad coach to keep you in line.

Chris: Yeah, we’re going to freak you the fuck out so that you stay small and don’t go for it here. Because if you do that, then we won’t be potentially harmed and thank you brain for keeping me alive. But also just seeing how quickly we can shift that when we actually cast it out into the light, which is what I have not been willing to do so far this month.

Lindsey: Which I’m celebrating you because, guys, Chris is a tough person to coach. So the fact that you’re doing this right now shows that you’ve already decided and you’re already growing, that you’re willing to cast down the light because you’d like to fight with me about this stuff sometimes.

Chris: I enjoy being right.

Lindsey: Yeah. Okay, but one thing I think that will really help this land is I want you to imagine what this would look like if Eva was doing this in her own head. Like give a situation where Eva would shame herself.

Chris: You can’t pull that leverage.

Lindsey: No, I do. Like if Eva was like, you should be able to walk by now, or you should be able to play guitar by now because you’re telling people that they can play guitar.

Chris: So I just did this with a client earlier, he has a daughter as well. And so that’s why I know it’s good leverage. But we were talking about this because I said as driven guys we get something in our crosshairs and we put it all on our shoulders to go get it and we shouldn’t have to ask for all this help. And we shouldn’t feel weak and we shouldn’t feel shame. If we do, something’s off. There’s so much stress packed in there.

And I changed that frame to his daughter and I said, you know, when she’s not learning something, a foreign language for instance, what compassion do you have for her? And he goes, well, she’s just learning, she’s just figuring it out. And I said she’s just growing.

So I think that’s just it, which is partly why I called the podcast Relentless Growth, because it doesn’t stop and I know that. And it’s a new edge for me to explore.

Lindsey: That’s Chris’s podcast, by the way.

Chris: Well, yeah, sorry. I guess I just assumed they would know that because I assume they’re all listening to it. No, I’m kidding. Because it doesn’t stop, it just changes shapes. And I do want to sign up for that growth.

Lindsey: So when did you reach the age when you decided that you can no longer do that?

Chris: Do what?

Lindsey: When did you reach the point in your life where you were no longer able to learn and do things wrong and have thoughts that don’t serve you anymore?

Chris: I’m confused.

Lindsey: At what point, I’m kind of making a point, at what point did you decide I’m no longer like a kid who I can have compassion for, who’s learning, who’s growing, and I’m all of the sudden this person who cannot do that and it’s just over for me.

Chris: Oh, when I wanted to go to law school.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: Because then I couldn’t be wrong, I had to get it right.

Lindsey: And what happened if you were wrong?

Chris: You get sued, you go broke, you get an ethics complaint, like everything goes wrong. Basically you just lose everything you worked for.

Lindsey: You die, it’s over.

Chris: Yeah, and face the court of public opinion along the way.

Lindsey: Interesting.

Chris: Yeah, I mean, the stakes were very high in my mind. And the theme of today’s coaching has been, with my clients anyway, letting go of the old person that you evolved out of. And I was talking with a client about how 15 years ago, you know, I wouldn’t even recognize that guy if he stepped in the room right now. I’d be like, the shit you’re worried about and the things you think you’re going to do, and the fact that you think you’re going to law school and staying in it.

Lindsey: It’s really interesting you took that identity with you and now it’s like holding you back.

Chris: Yeah.

Lindsey: It’s almost like if you could talk to that guy who’s trying to help you in your brain right now, but isn’t, what would you say to him?

Chris: Well, first of all I want to pause and say that it’s fascinating to experience in the same day the same type of coaching that my clients went through and know that I need the same medicine too. No matter how much I learn, no matter how many coaches I coach with, no matter…

Lindsey: How successful you are.

Chris: Well, yeah, I mean, like no matter how much money we make, how many clients we take, whatever. Like it’s irrelevant because it’s the human experience that we’re all subject to.

I think if old me were here and I could see the difference, I would be like, wow, it’s just a subtle shift, it’s just a subtle unlearning that really unlocks the new growth, which is the shame never really worked. The shame never really brought me what I did want. It only kept me from what I didn’t want. It kept me focused on what I didn’t want, that’s what I meant to say.

And that’s really big, because that’s what I think shame does best is it puts right front and center what you don’t want and like forces you to focus on that. And so you can’t have a higher level of growth there. What?

Lindsey: I think that’s really profound, do you?

Chris: I don’t know, I guess that’s relative.

Lindsey: What would it take for this to be a breakthrough?

Chris: Well, I’ll tell you this, I feel, I don’t know. I don’t know, you ask me that all the time.

Lindsey: Guys, Chris is like, it’s like he also has lots of thoughts about things having to be profound to be a breakthrough. So I always challenge him on this because my mind is blown like if there’s a dirty sock and I’m like, whoa, that’s amazing. And Chris is like, oh, your socks are perfectly white, folded, and matched up, not impressive.

Chris: you make me sound so like hoity.

Lindsey: Okay, besides the point.

Chris: Here’s the uncomfortable truth of what she’s saying, because she’s not wrong. I’m fascinated with all kinds of things and impressed with all kinds of things, but when it comes to my own performance and results and breakthroughs, there’s really an impossible threshold to cross for something to be like mind blowing, holy shit, this is melting my brain out of my head.

Lindsey: Life-altering.

Chris: And I will go back to, as part of leftovers from law school Chris, which is your emotions are irrelevant because your emotions don’t help the case prove its merit or persuade the Judge.

Lindsey: I don’t even know if that’s true.

Chris: No, but that was how I was programmed. That was how I was programmed, and then I just have a very logical brain so it goes there anyway. So for this to feel like a breakthrough I would have to see how simple it really is, which is I had a thought that devolved very quickly into shame. And that shame devolved very quickly into avoidance, as not action, but as an inaction. And the inaction caused a loop of non-results.

Lindsey: Where you feel more shame and then more avoidance and then it goes on.

Chris: Right, because I didn’t deal with the initial shame I experience that again and use that, weaponize that as evidence against myself. Like see, it’s not working or something like that. Or see, you did it wrong or whatever.

Lindsey: What does it take to step out of that loop? To walk out of this door and to not get in that loop anymore?

Chris: I think to really see it. I think that’s the biggest thing.

Lindsey: Do you see it?

Chris: I see it right now, yeah.

Lindsey: What decision would you have to make?

Chris: To let that go. To just let that part of me realize you don’t need that anymore. And it’s costing you, not helping you.

Lindsey: So my thought is to apply that just across the board would be to look at it or to like think about it as shame plays no role in your world anymore. Like you feel shame, you lean in.

Chris: Well, that’s what I was going to say, is I don’t think I can eliminate the experience of shame.

Lindsey: Right.

Chris: But I think I can…

Lindsey: Feel it, because I think you avoid it, right? You feel it and then you’re like, oh, don’t do that because I don’t want to feel shame. And so in my mind the growth is, one, knowing that you’re capable of feeling the shame and then going forward regardless. Like every time shame shows up, not letting it drive your actions, not listening to it.

Chris: That’s it, is I think walking out the door I’m like, I need to build a relationship with shame.

Lindsey: Oh, that’s really good. What does that look like?

Chris: Get to know it, get to know when it’s there, when it’s not there. Decide when I can listen to it, because it might be useful sometimes, I don’t know. But as long as I avoid it entirely and like keep it locked up in a little corner somewhere, I definitely can’t use it to my advantage or at least see it and mitigate it.

Lindsey: I’m not sure if it’s useful at all, to be honest. I just think it’s a way our brain keeps us in line so that we don’t risk vulnerability.

Chris: And full disclosure to everybody listening, there’s a book that I love called Power Versus Force. And he uses this basically graph, at the bottom of the graph of human experience shame is the emotion or experience with the lowest frequency a human can register. It bottoms us out. And I think that’s why it works, because I think that somewhere along the way our ego figures that out.

Lindsey: Smart ego.

Chris: And it’s like, okay, if guilt doesn’t work, if avoidance doesn’t work, we’ll drop you into shame and that shit will work. So I want everybody to understand that intellectually I know this. When I’m talking to someone else, I can see this a mile away. When I’m in, as Dispenza says, when I’m in the jar of shame it is very difficult for me to see it and I’m in that storm. It’s almost impossible for me to remove myself from it until somebody asked me great questions like Lindsey.

Lindsey: And can I say that’s why we have coaches, like why I coach people, why I have a coach, why all of it.

Chris: Yeah, and even if you had a thousand coaches there would still be something to uncover like.

Lindsey: Totally.

Chris: I guess that’s why I picked this particular goal because I’m like, this is just one of many, but it’s something a lot of people can relate to.

Lindsey: But this is really good because shame is like your thing. But what if your work when you walk out of this room is to practice feeling shame? To like name it. Like when we’re having a conversation and you get triggered by a question I ask and you feel shame, like your job is to be like, shame. Right now I feel shame. And like sitting with it.

Chris: I think that’s going to take practice. I would like to pretend that would be simple and easy for me to just pick oh, I’m in shame right now. But I don’t know that it will feel that apparent in the moment. I think I’ll have to get used to, I think there’s sort of like a darkness, like a really low feeling about it, and that’s how I’ll know. So that’s what I’ll watch for. And more consistently scanning for it. Like looking at decisions that I make going, is that really…

Lindsey: Yeah, because I think it’s just about everyday life. Like where is shame showing up? Like you said, building a relationship with it, knowing when it’s there.

Chris: Okay.

Lindsey: So what is the leverage, what is it going to take for you to really commit to that?

Chris: I feel committed to that. I don’t resist that.

Lindsey: Okay. What’s the cost of not doing it?

Chris: Why are you asking me?

Lindsey: Because I think it’s important. Because I think there’s a difference between having a realization and having something that will alter your life.

Chris: I agree. The cost is immense. I don’t want to set that example for Eva. I don’t want to set that example for my clients. I don’t want anything to hold me back, and it seems like I’m really the best person to hold me back. So that has to stop.

And I think the like collateral consequences, like the—

Lindsey: Like if nothing changes in 10 years, what happens to your life?

Chris: Oh, then I’m very close to where I am right now in 10 years. That’s not acceptable. Or even two years.

Lindsey: Yeah.

Chris: Yeah, or even one year.

Lindsey: Okay.

Chris: Okay. Great job, coach, high five.

Lindsey: Thanks.

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